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Discussion in 'Fiesta ST Autocross' started by Smokin, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. jimclark

    jimclark Active Member

    And note here to Smokin--I didn't mean to imply any laziness or ineptitude on your part! [All--See how hard this can be! Sheesh!]
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  3. TRev

    TRev Member

    Glad to hear and my apologies for the misunderstanding. Greg ran slightly quicker in the wet than me on at least one side at the Pro in the wet. Lighter cars with less relative power to put down, will undoubtedly have an advantage over the FoST in limited grip conditions.

    I did forget to mention that I also changed out the stock brake pads. My fronts had chunks coming off the pads and I didn't like that it felt like the car wanted to throw me through the dash when I tapped the brakes. They definitely made it more difficult to trail brake precisely.

    That leads me to one more weakness which is the eDiff though shared by both the FoST and FiST. However the GTI, Genesis R-Spec, and SRT4 all have mechanical options. Better than nothing but not ideal and hard on brakes. I ran 6 practice runs on the test course at Spring Nats and my driver's side pad smoked for a few minutes after my runs.
  4. Smokin

    Smokin Active Member

    Sorry about the implication; good to see you on the thread though. Funny how word gets around......

    I still think the FoST is suited for DS. AX is a torque game and 270 lb ft is a bunch against all the other 200+/- cars regardless of weight. The SRT 2.4l is something close to 225-240 at most.
  5. TRev

    TRev Member

    The SRT4 is also about 200lbs lighter and was commonly known it was underrated significantly. Camber gains in front of 2-2.5 degrees.

    The Genesis Coupe has 235 lb ft and similar weight as the FoST but it also has RWD, camber allowance, and a slightly wider rear wheel. The primary reason I sold my Genesis is due to the 19" wheels prior to the +1/-1 allowance. Both Lance Keely and I won the Bridgestone National Street Tire Challenge with this car on less than optimal RE-11 tires. With 18" wheel selection, the Genesis is even more potent.

    The GTI is 258, weighs about 200lbs less from my quick research and has mechanical LSD. It comes with 225 tires so i have to believe it likely has 7.5 or 8" rims.

    The FoST does not stand a chance in D Street against the Audi or WRX. I think the Mazda Speed3 should be in G Street as well. Or move all of the cars I have listed in addition to the Celica to D Street and move the Audi and WRX up to B Street which really doesn't make sense. I don't foresee the SEB moving a bunch of cars to make G Street the class for the FiST by moving all the cars that will likely beat it.

    There are a number of other things to consider regarding these cars as well and I disagree that AX is a torque game. If that was the case, there are many cars that would not be the class leaders they are. Suspension geometry, wheel allowance, camber capabilities, dimensions, height, weight, etc. all play a crucial role.

    One example, I have owned both the 2.0t Genesis and 3.8 Genesis. The 2.0t was actually the Track which is 80lbs heavier than the R-Spec and about the same weight as the 3.8. The 2.0 was in G Stock and the 3.8 was in D Stock. I thought it was a no brainer to jump up the 3.8 with the additional horsepower and torque. However, the 80lb difference between the 2.0 and 3.8 is all sitting on the front axles. Even though the index seemed to favor the 3.8, the 2.0 was actually as quick or slightly quicker raw time. I owned the 3.8 for three months and sold it because of this. The other issue is that the 3.8 didn't have enough tire to put the power down completely (same size as the 2.0..8" front and 8.5" rear wheels) unlike the 2.0 which could put most of its power down effectively. The FoST is the same way. It cannot put down all the power it has available whereas the FiST has more ability to do so.

    There is also the data point that Strano got beat by the Celica in his FoST by two different drivers as well placing third at a National event. A 14 time National Champ getting third to the Celica.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
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  6. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    Adam who won in an SRT-4 also had the ACR addition which has factory adjustable suspension, which helps.

    I'm amazed the Celica is still dominate.
  7. limbo

    limbo Active Member

    The 270 lb-ft. number is misleading, it's not making that much in 2nd gear because of the lack of overboost (same as the fiesta).

    There are a whole lot more variables to the classing decision than just torque. It's weight + open diff makes it a challenge to put down all that torque and it won't transition like the smaller cars or be able to make nice arcs through large sweepers.

    I still think we need more data before anyone can decide one way or another but so far the results have in no way shown it an overdog. I personally would like to see it stay in class until the data clearly proves otherwise, makes for nice class competition locally.
    TRev and jimclark like this.
  8. TRev

    TRev Member

    Definitely shows that weight/size is a significant factor and the camber helps too. 2400lbs and up to 3 degrees of negative camber up front (though most people don't run that much as it would hurt acceleration/braking).
  9. limbo

    limbo Active Member

    Pretty certain the national champ is running that much, the minimal hit to acceleration/braking is likely worth it for the cornering advantages. Note: he was on RS-3's at Dixie which love camber
    TRev likes this.
  10. TRev

    TRev Member

    Good info and appreciated as my info was not first hand and instead off forum postings.
  11. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    The Celica has adjustable camber in stock form?
  12. limbo

    limbo Active Member

    No but their service manual allows for the use of crash bolts for camber adjustment.
  13. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    Are we sure our service manual doesn't say anything about it?
  14. limbo

    limbo Active Member

    Yes, unfortunately.
  15. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    I wish I still had my contacts at Ford to push a service procedure update.

    Here is to hoping the future manuals do.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
    jimclark and Cligedy like this.
  16. jimclark

    jimclark Active Member

    I gotta say, Trev, thanks for your clear, well-presented descriptions of things and your reasonable presentation of your argument. Very much appreciated. Limbo, you deserve a similar thumbs-up. I find myself learning lots still, even when I'm sitting here at my computer eating ice cream. Big plus having folks giving useful, intelligent commentary on the forum. There are lots of smart, informed guys making comments around here. I hope it continues.
  17. eRic

    eRic Active Member

    When the Focus ST arrived in 2012 we [local SCCA region] put it in D Stock with the MAZDASPEED3. However it was classed in G Stock when SCCA officially classified it for 2013. When I wrote the SEB about classing the Fiesta ST in 2013 they thought it might go into D Stock with the MINI Cooper S JCW but it was classed in G Stock for 2014. SCCA took in consideration that the Focus ST and Fiesta ST have enhanced|electronic torque vectoring control vs. a limited slip differential and that would affect how the Focus ST and Fiesta ST accelerate out of corners.
    jimclark likes this.
  18. k757

    k757 Active Member

    DS?... a Fiesta ST against a WRX... now that is hilarious
  19. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    I'm starting to come around to the Focus -> DS side. So far at the Crows Landing Pro Mark Scroggs has a 2 second lead and has left the rest of us fighting for a very distant second place. Here's hoping we can get a little closer today!
  20. jimclark

    jimclark Active Member

    To have classed the FoST in GS and then put the FiST in DS would have been . . . a curious decision, I believe.

    Re: Crow's Landing Pro: Alan, here's hoping you give it to 'em today!
  21. Smokin

    Smokin Active Member

    Don't know about the 2014 GTI but the 2010-13 had 207 lb ft or torque not 258, did not have a mechanical diff, just a poor e-diff with the traction control off (lots of inner tire spin); and 7.5" rims. In 2012 I was 4.4 out of first to the Celica at the Championships, running 245/40x18 Hankook R-comps compared to others on Hoosiers. To my disappointment the FiST is not that fast and I can't put that much rubber on it, but I like that idea of the federal 235x17s. TRev you were on Federals if I remember.

    As for the Focus ST in DS, it is still an unsorted car compared to several years sorting with the TT. The Mini dominated DS for years until the 2008 TT got sorted. Like the BRZ just now ripping it up in STX, the Focus will do so from this year on.

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