RE-DRILL to run Enkei 16x8 RPF1, street/track, many 15's also available

Discussion in 'Fiesta ST Wheel and Tire Upgrades' started by raamaudio, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I have done a great deal of searching, called a few places, looked at the cost of CCW, high cost forged wheels, etc....so far this seems the best way to go. I started a new thread as I feel is important info I wanted out in the open, not buried in another thread.

    I saw this mentioned elsewhere so looked into it as well as as many options as I could think of, it was not my original idea, I just dug into it to see how viable it is.

    As we all know not many good low weight reasonable cost options available in 4x108 so I looked into rebored wheels and then , 5x100 or 5x114.3mm redrilled hubs.....none worked out that well, the easiest thing I have found is changing the hubs to 4x100 as there is room on all parts to do it safely(or so it seems, I will double check with the experts on this of course)

    1) Rebore wheels, damage one on the road, need spares, etc.....keep having to rebore more wheels.....not a great option

    2) Rebore hubs and rotors for 5x100, not a huge selection of wheels available but better than 4x108, problem, hub flanges would have to be filled in at least one location and holes would be close to at least two stock holes so not super strong......

    3) Rebore hubs to 5x114.3, huge selection of wheels, problem, hubs flanges are not big enough and still close to a couple of old holes.

    4) Rebore to 4x100, not a huge selection in bigger wheels but enough at least for somebody wanting to run a very good moderate cost wheel like the RPF1 in 16x8. It is possible we may be able to use Mazda 2 hubs so not even have to be rebored!

    A big selection in 15" wheels available, very well made, very light weight, great prices, for those wanting 15" track wheels this is excellent!

    We add a BBK, talked to Wilwood, theirs is supposed to fit over 15's, will be tight on some and some designs might not fit but many should, just have to have the rotor hats done as well and then just buy new rings when needed.

    COST: Not sure yet but to just have 4 hubs and the rotors rebored should be not to expensive, rear rotors last quite some time so over time, especially if running a BBK, hardly any cost at all. If you run stock rotors all around then having them rebored everytime needing new ones might be a hassle but there could be rotors with the right specs off the shelf, have to search and find out.

    ---------------

    Looks like I am going to go this route unless somebody has a better recommendation:
    -Rebored hubs to 4x100 or buy Mazda 2 hubs if they fit.
    -Get rear rotors bored to 4x100
    -BBK rebored to 4x100 for the front
    -RPF1 in 16x8 for street and for track wheels (though still considering 15x8 for track wheels/tires)

    Any questions, clarifications, suggestions are most welcome.

    Rick
     
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  3. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    Questions that came up on another forum I posted this on about re-drilling wheels, etc...here is what my research and experience leads me to.

    Quite a few issues to consider when re-boring the wheels.
    -If you have to replace one, have to get it re-bored
    -Decide to run different wheels for any reason, re-bored
    -All 5 bolt wheels would have at least 2 if not all the holes filled first adding cost, time and potential failure points.
    -Most if not all 4 bolt light weight wheels would have to be filled first as well, the area without holes, so a 45degree turn, are not made with enough material there to re-bore
    -Setup fee for different wheels if you change them.
    -Wheels are much more difficult to put in the CNC machine, take up more space, likely cost more per wheel than simply -re-boring a brake disk.

    Benefits of re-boring the hubs:
    +One time effort and cost for the hubs
    +Rotors can be turned 45 degrees and re-bored in a very solid area
    +Rotors do not need to be filled, smaller so easier to handle, one time setup fee if you use the same shop
    +BBK, once hats are re-bored then never again in most cases
    +Far more wheels available, buy them and slap them on
    +Bend a wheel, slap another one on
     
  4. D1JL

    D1JL Well-Known Member

    The Asian version of the Fiesta uses 4x100.
    Maybe you could get a Ford parts seller in Asia to send you a set of hubs.


    Dave
     
  5. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    It would probably cost more to get the parts ordered and shipped here than having the stock parts re-bored. There is plenty of meat on the stock hubs to handle it as well.

    I hope to have my car on my lift in a few days once I get the ti off of it and then can pull the parts and take them to the local machine shop a few blocks away and get a quote.

    If this works out, sure it will, I could possibly setup a deal to help others out since I have already paid the setup costs. Maybe just pay for the file needed to CNC the parts but it might have to be the same machine, same mounts to hold the parts, etc......

    Thanks:)
    Rick
     
  6. wash

    wash Active Member

    I was thinking along the same lines but realized I was going about it backward.

    First find the right tire.

    That will narrow your wheel choices significantly. Then look at our application including wheel offset, power, vehicle weight, brakes and the choice is reduced to a handful of good race wheels with almost all of them in 4*100.

    I am a big fan of comprehensive updates so I'm going to figure out brakes before I take the leap.
     
  7. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I would love to run 17's but there is little compelling reason to do so with such limited amount of proper wheels, I will not run less than an 8" wide wheel, would rather run 8.5 or even 9" if I could make them fit and I might if I go 15's, I have a fender roller and these cars can be stretched a decent amount.

    I have not decided for sure yet but going to run Conti DWS for the street tires and DOT race for track, etc or run one of the next three for street and track and get winter tires as well. If I ran one of the three below I would not have to carry a full set of wheels and tires and change all the time but really not a big deal, been doing it for decades, I just have to decide how fast I want to be:) Not building to a class, done more than enough of that, I prefer to build my way and let the rules dictate where it runs, better to be outclassed and take seconds and thirds and sometimes win than easy to win as done a ton of that years ago:)

    Super sticky summer only.
    Dizerra II, 225/45/16, new model coming soon but still available.
    AD08R, 225/50/16, costly, better in rain, a bit taller but with more torque and HP might be a good way to go.
    Ventus, R-S3, 225/50/16great tire as well, still a bit tall

    Ultra high performance all season>
    Conti DWS several sizes to pick from

    Track, I buy fresh race team take offs, have for years, get a great deal, $40-80 each for one brand, $45-85 each for the other, sometimes never even raced, just scuffed in, if raced the best ones usually have just a few laps on them, I always buy the best ones they have.

    Hoosier R6, 50 AAA, for TT events the A6 is faster but does not last as lone but works for TT and autocross
    Toyo RA1, 100AAA, lasts longer, better in the wet.

    225/45/15
    205/45/16
    225/50/16 a bit tall but again might work for the best and fit over a BBK easier.

    15's, many great wheels available, BBK, would have to do some custom work but as long as I can find hats to fit the rotors the rest is pretty simple
    16's, good chance will already fit the Wilwood BBK, I just need to find the inside clearance on the RPF1.

    If I go with 15's I might be able to squeeze some 15x9's on!
     
  8. wash

    wash Active Member

    McRib ran a 205 on a 15*6.5" rim, I'll be happy if I can run a 225 on a 15*8".

    If we go wider, the offset required will increase the scrub radius and torque steer a lot.

    There comes a point when you need to redesign the front suspension, I want to save that point until after I figure out I need more tire than a 225.
     
  9. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I will make a 225 work but I wish I could get more offset than +35 in 15x8 or +38 in 16x8. If I went to 15x9 it would be a bit for the challenge and more tire support though not really needed with the design of track tires but can help, I have not ran such sizes before, normally much wider!

    The 15.9 is also a +35.

    I might have to make up my own BBK to fit as well.


    Off to the machine shop I go:)
     

    Attached Files:

  10. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I ended up taking just a front and rear and still installed in the front knuckle and rear carrier as they have to be pressed out. I wanted to see if he could do it without pressing them but does not look like it, at least that shop does not want to.

    I have a press and am going to need more info on any specific issues pressing them out so I do not damage them.

    Not going to be a simple operation as I had hoped but not insurmountable and not expensive when considering how many more good wheels are available for 4x100.

    I was quoted $25-30 per hub for re-drilling them, far less expensive than new hubs.

    Also quoted the same for drilling the rotors.

    Ends up this is an old school shop, no CNC machine, so I am going to check other shops as I want to see what kind of price I can get due to needing spares and or helping others get this done. Once a CNC machine is programed it is pretty easy to do more later on.

    If the Mazda 2 hubs are indeed the same as all four hubs on the ST that would help as others could just buy them and have them pressed in then get the rotors re-drilled.

    I am deciding on the wheel sizes I want to use and might end up making my own BBK, it would make rotor swap a bit easier as not having to re-drill all the time.

    There could also be off the shelf stock type rotors that fit one or both ends of the car, if so then higher grade, Cyro treated, may be available for a decent price.
     
  11. moshaholic2

    moshaholic2 Active Member

    People dislike them in the states, but the Euro guys love running H&R spacers to get more offset. How light you looking to go? Team Dynamics rims are plenty light when you get down into the 16" and 15" sizes (and come in correct bolt patterns, centerbore and usually a few different offsets)

    For example, an 17x7 prorace 1.2 is a 17lb wheel (about as light as Id go on the street)

    Also, a 225 on an 8" rim doesn't make for a square contact patch.

    These sizes fit these widths better.
    7" - 215 for a square tire
    7.5" - 225
    8"- 235
     
  12. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I have used many spacers but only if I have to and use longer studs and hub centric spacers only though once I used bolt on ones once and they were H&R.

    TD wheels are almost always, if not always, grossly under rated for weight, sometimes by several lbs, look into that;)

    I have had a hundreds of wheels and tires and for track you almost always want a bit of stretch, not the pretend performance stance stretch, just a bit to get more sidewall support, there is quite a bit of info on this if you know where to look, GRM did a test last year on the subject in fact.

    For pure street stuff, your numbers are quite good though:)

    And there have been cantilever slicks made with really stretched numbers printed on them to get around the rules, I have seen tires with nearly 9" of tread width on 7" rims but they were designed for it.

    I have had big bucks wheels and cheap wheels and have had great service with wheels made like MAT Enkei which are like many BBS wheels are made and I like to hop curbs on the track, the TD wheels are solid, never heard of any issues except the weight not being correctly stated.

    Since Ford decided to put a stupidly low profile, over priced, narrow tire on overly heavy wheels on the car with an odd bolt pattern and geared for it making taller tires in 17 mostly unobtanium, I had to come up with a better plan.

    I have been enjoying figuring this out so my main reason to post is not for advice though I gladly look at all offered, it is to share what I have come up with to help others:)

    Thanks,
    Rick
     
  13. RodMoe

    RodMoe Well-Known Member

    Yup gotta say the TD wheels do run a lil more weight than posted I think Joe (2J-racing) said his (TD pro Race 3) were closer to stock then the 17 lbs stated and my 15x8s list at 14ish and everyone came in at 15.5 I saw the GRM article about running 205's on 8 inch wheels being faster than the 225's and the 225 ran faster on the 9 inch wheel than the 8 inch wheel. This month GRM (May 2014 issue) they did a test on heavy wheels vs lighter wheels and guess what lighter beat heavy .. Good read and fun foloowing your endevor on wheel hubs :)
    Oh and Glad to hear TD makes a solid product I'll take a lil more mass if it holds up on track.. Just wish enkei would step up with a Rpf1...
     
  14. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    Balance, the key word in all things, cars, family, personal lives, professional, the world, the universe, in everything is the key and only key that matters. Reliability, sidewall support, weight and where it is located, fitment, availability, cost and more, it all adds up. That is why even a 15" wheel with heavy tires can be worse than a 17 with less weight as the weight is not as far out from the center or rotation. Having a really lite 15 and lite tires but the wrong gearing can be very detrimental to performance as well, again simple as it may seem, balance is the key.

    Ford, has to balance the books, only so much profit in small cars, even the ST. Heavy wheels with a nuts more costly paint job in Rado, make some money and know many will change them anyway. 4x108, sticking to the old pattern as it costs a great deal for them to change the tooling. Back to the heavy wheels, probably far less warranty issues thus less cost to cover them, less cost to buy them.....Also probably smooths out the application of power so their systems can work better(not faster, just smoother)

    They must get a heck of a deal on the stock tires, maybe even a subsidy on them.

    I do love the car but the bean counters and marketeers must of been allowed to have a little say in it.

    No back up camera? It would cost practically nothing for them but I guess the TI edition had to have a few of exclusive bits.
     
  15. wash

    wash Active Member

    I don't think 225s on an 8" wheel is stretching things at all, especially if its a race tire that runs wide.

    I think I remember reading about one 225 tire with a measured 8.7" tread width. I think I would like an 8" rim more than a 7.5" for that.

    Of course it all comes down to what fits and a 15" rim might compromise offset and width to avoid hitting the suspension.

    I would love for everything to align on good cheap race tires, light wheels in a optimum size, an easy big brake kit, cheap consumables and good looks but I'm just hoping that something decent can be done without spending huge money.
     
  16. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    225 on an 8" rim is far from what I would prefer. 8.5 or possibly a 9" rim would be better but with only a few choices in rim width and tires either 205 or 225......I have been looking at all the tread widths versus section widths, diameter, brake fitment, weight, offset, cost...........even going to 4x100 it does not leave many great options but much better than 4x108.

    The stock brakes with good pads and ventilation would actually do fairly well I am sure but I need to also ensure I can upgrade if I must so planning it now in all the calculations and looking into small diameter rotor sizes as well in case smaller diameter wheels work out to be the best option.

    The race tires all cost around the same except when I had the Vette with huge tires, it was the shipping that was a bit costly, the take off tires I get from the race teams via supplier are very very well priced.

    I have a limited amount of weight I can carry in our trailer, tons of room but it is all at the rear where the car is and past the axles so any spare wheels and tires have to go up front where I do not have much room for them. I have two 30 gallon fuel tanks in the rear as well and a fuel pump station, I have to limit the amount of fuel until I am near the destination as well but if I ever need to run race fuel at least I can, if available, buy it in town for much less cost than at the tracks.

    So, I have been considering two options.
    1)
    -Best ultra high performance street tires for street and track use, probably on the Enkei RPF1 16x8 as it looks like I can fit a BBK under them without to much trouble.
    -And a set of all seasons like Conti DWS as best in snow as we may run into it while traveling, they could be rain tires for the track if needed, 16's as well.
    This would cost more initially and possibly in replacement tires if they wear quickly on track but I would not have to change the wheels and tires out for events, I could also have all the same wheels.

    2)
    -Best all season for street, like the Michelin A/S 3, not to great in snow but I do not plan do drive in it but can get by if I get stuck in a storm and can carry cable chains or whatever is best now. Rain tires for track us as well.
    -Track wheels with DOT race tires, faster, wear well if careful, get them cheap, etc.....

    I will decide on at least something soon as have no wheels and tires for the car right now, sold and shipped the stockers off as no use for them.
     
  17. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I was looking for the GMR article but could not find my copy of the mag but I did read and but forgot just how wide they went with the tire and wheel combo. Since the 205 R6 Hoosiers have 8" wide tread I might just put them on 8" wide wheels and save a bit more weight, stiffer sidewalls, etc....
    19lbs per tire, 14-15 lbs per wheel, 33-34 lbs per corner!

    BUT, just 22.8" tall so I have to see if this will effect the gearing in a positive or negative way.

    ----------------

    More research, RPF1 in 16x8 may not fit over a 13" bbk, likely not so I have been picking parts to make an 11.75x1.25 rotor, FSL caliper kit, they have hats that will work, just need mounting brackets but first to determine the diameter of the inside of the wheels.
     
  18. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I just might go digging in the junkyard for some hubs with matching splines with a 5x114.3 bolt pattern, once with enough meat on them to mill down to fit the ST knuckles, bearings, etc......that would open up far more wheels than 4x100, 5x100, etc.....

    I could have the stock ones filled, two holes, then made into 5x100 but that might be costly and ultimately weaker at the same time so finding 5x100 or 5x114.3 hubs may be a better way to go.

    I may go ahead and take the hubs and rotors to the machine shop tomorrow to talk about it, see what they think, then decide if to just go the simple route, 4x100.
     
  19. PCA-1

    PCA-1 Active Member

    First of all, when a wheel manufacturer offers multiple offsets, only one offset per size is chosen to use as a stock weight. Changes in offsets will deviate from the stock listed weight.

    Second, with the exception of one wheel, I have not had any complaints about Team Dynamics wheels weights from well over 300 customers.

    Please refrain from making sweeping statements with limited knowledge. It serves no one.
     
  20. wash

    wash Active Member

    If you are buying new tires, sticking with the sizes that Miata racers use leads to inexpensive race rubber, probably at least $20 less per tire compared to 16 and 17" tires.

    They are also light weight with suitable load ratings. We might be harder on our tires than a Miata but that means we just have to go for the slightly harder compounds.

    Any way, that probably means 225-50r15 is a sweet spot.
     
  21. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    No offense meant but I have personally experienced this issue and have seen quite a few posts concerning it over the years on various forums, it was quite a few years ago.
    At one time I talked to TD about getting a custom drilled version for a group of us looking for a good lower cost wheel, which they are, but the weight was well over the advertised weight and we decided not to do so.

    Enkei, in the racing line, lists most all the weights, enough so that you can estimate what the others will weigh if not listed and the highest change there is.

    http://www.enkei.com/rpf1.shtml#

    Take a look at the offset versus weight change on the size chart, only big changes with big offset differences,

    Perhaps in the versions you are selling there are few major differences and or they have fixed the issue in how they advertise the weights. Simply having a weight versus offset range column or at least a mention somewhere on the site, easy to see, there can be a significant difference in weight......

    As critical as unsprung rotational mass is the true weight of a size should be listed or at least mentioned when ordering.

    Perhaps you make sure your customers know what size they order will weigh, that would be very commendable at least in the extreme case differences, perhaps you do, why only one complaint out of 300 sales.

    One of the two would be at least a place to start.
    AVERAGE / RANGE OF WEIGHT
    14x7 e15-45 4 98mm 114.3mm 12.6lbs $145 $580
    15x7 e12-45 4/5 98mm 114.3mm 13.7lbs $160 $640


    16x7 e15-45 4/5 98mm 120mm 16.7lbs $178 $712

    17x7 e15-50 4/5 98mm 120mm 17.4lbs $195 $780

    17x7.5 e15-53 4/5 98mm 120mm 18.1lbs $205 $820

    17x8 e20-53 4/5 98mm 120mm 19.8lbs $225 $900

    17x9 e23-45 4/5 98mm 120mm 20.9lbs $238 $952

    18x8 e11-53 4/5 98mm 120mm 19.8lbs $250 $1000

    18x9 e15-35 4/5 98mm 120mm 25.4lbs $265 $1060

    Most Sincerely
    Rick



     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014

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