Rear sway bar, yes or no?

Discussion in 'Fiesta ST Autocross' started by AlanBDahl, May 12, 2014.

  1. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    Try not just the Tire Rack but other online retailers too. Don't believe their websites either. The Tire Rack showed out of stock when I ordered my set but they were able to put together a set for me (the last one, sorry) anyhow.

    Thanks, that's where I was planning to go.
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  3. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    I noticed that the holes on the Eibach bar are bigger than the bolts. Is there any reason for this? Has it been an issue with mounting it?
  4. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    I installed the Eibach bar today and so far I'm not impressed. I seem to have traded low-speed understeer for high-speed understeer. Also the front end tends to skate now I'll make a run or two at tomorrow's event and then I'll disconnect one side and see what happens. I'll probably bring it to the Crows Landing ProSolo but likely I'll start the event without it.
  5. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    Did you have high-speed oversteer without the bar, it seems what you are saying but just want to be clear:)
    I want low-speed oversteer, mid speed neutral and a bit of understeer at high-speed.
  6. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    I had a tad of understeer at low speeds, neutral at midrange and slight oversteer at high speeds. I was hoping that the bar would dial out the low speed push without making the tail too happy at high speeds but instead I got more push at the high end which was unexpected.

    I should note however that I have not yet tried it on my race tires which could change things. I should know more after tomorrow.
  7. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I hope to have the results you are having so far, looking forward to the race tire report!
  8. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    I didn't feel what you are feeling running the ZIIs.
  9. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    The results from yesterday were not good. While I was able to take 3rd of 15 in PAX the car was very uncomposed. Once again (5/5 events this year) it was raining and the car had a tendancy to skate. Looking back on it the surface was bad enough that I might have been better off on the RE-050A’s but oh well. It was all I could do to get the car to go where I wanted without the stability control jumping in. It did seem to slalom better but there was only one true slalom section on the course and that was only three cones. Compared to the way that the car felt in the dominating performance I had at the previous event (at a different site but still in wet conditions) the car was a lot harder to drive.

    I took a ride in a friend’s Focus ST and it stuck much, much better in transitions. With a little coaching he was able to beat my best scored time in fun runs though I also sped up by a second so he was still behind me. The Focus seemed more pondurous through the tight sections and wheelspin was a big issue but the grip was far superior, so much so that I think had I taken a run in the Focus I would have equalled or beat my Fiesta time.

    Conclusion: At least in wet conditions on a low-traction surtace the bar hurt much more than it helped, at least on the ZIIs. On concrete in the dry the results could have been far different so YMMV. However I plan on removing the bar before the Crows Landing Pro in two weeks though I’ll bring it along and switch back should I think I need it.
  10. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    I will probably remove mine to see if there is a real difference on the transitions like you mentioned. I haven't experienced the high speed understeer like you have mentioned and others in my car have not either.

    I drive with the stability control completely off even in the wet, were you running with it on or in Sport?
  11. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    I don’t know if it’s really high-speed “understeer”, it’s more like high-speed loss of grip everywhere. I was running with the car in Sport mode as I have done quite successfullly in the other events I’ve ran. I probably should have tried a run with it off but we had a fairly fast transition from a higher-grip surface to a lower-grip one where the car was squirly and the result of a miscalculation would have put you off into the woods.
  12. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    If you unbolt one end it will be the same as if removing it, sure you know that, and then you can try both ways between runs, I would:)

    Do you have a co-driver and or fun runs after the timed runs are done? I miss SoCal as used to get in a ton of fun runs at $1 each even on the fast 90 second courses at the stadium in San Diego, 14 run runs was my record but the tires were way to hot by then so it was just fun taking passengers along for a ride.

    Sorry it was not such a great day for you, it may of helped to undo the bar but not much fun if not prepared for that in the rain.
  13. AlanBDahl

    AlanBDahl Active Member

    Unbolting it would kill it’s effects but I am concerned that given it’s unique mounting that the bar could bang against the twist beam and make quire a racket. It’s easier just to take it on/off now that I’ve learned how to do it quickly.

    I do not have a co-driver. Because of “purists” in our local region we only score the first three runs for PAX class and any runs after that if given are free fun runs. All other classes score all their runs and no fun runs are offered usually.

    The day was still ok despite my complaining, I was able to hold on to my series lead (after three events) by two points but Karl Coleman (Subaru) is getting closer and closer. Hopefully we’ll have a dry event someday!
  14. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    I am in the middle of modding and mounting a Ground Control adjustable sway bar right now, I will be posting pics once I take a serious break or finish it. It is bolted to the axle and has ends by the shock mounts so easy to get to and unhook one end or adjust it. Spherical ends of course and will be loosened for corner balancing.

    For the front I am sticking with the stock bar for the time being, race grade bushings and making some adjustable spherical end links.

    Sorry your bar is not something you can test more easily, perhaps you can find an empty lot to do some more with it.

    Thanks for posting, keeps me going on my long hours on all the mods:)

  15. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    Only 3 runs count....brutal.
  16. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    That is typical of all the events I have ran in E and W Washington, NW Oregon, N and S California and N Utah, 3 timed runs. In SoCal they had such huge turnouts and a huge pool of experienced people to organize and run the events it was clockwork, hundreds of cars and yet I could enter both the AM and PM sessions and get in lots of fun runs. I went to a two day school, something like 400+ cars, I made so many runs and had 5 different national champs drive my very quick turbo Matrix as well, I lost count of the runs, I think I had TTD as well, the FiST will be faster than the Matrix by a decent margin I am sure, I am going to love this little bugger but mostly will be doing HPDE and some TT stuff but I always enjoyed the socializing at autocross events far more, so many wonderful people to get to know:)
  17. Mightymango

    Mightymango Active Member

    I was just going off of our typical 100-140 driver 3 AM and 3PM runs. Pro class gets scored on top AM and top PM like they do with the National event day splitting.
  18. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    SoCal, especially at the football stadium in San Deigo, best autocrossing I have ever done besides some events on a little road race track back in the 70s in my 510 days in WA State....when the Vette guys setup the course in SoCal it was long and fast, 90 second runs, well into third gear, good thing nobody had a radar as I was hitting some pretty high speeds.....tons of runs....., organizing meets to get as many Matrix cars out as I could......

    Back on topic:)

    Rear bar or not, etc....I have been studying my suspension books, I am going to look to see if anything newer and more pertinent to a beam axle is not published, it seems I want little rear camber as more will add more grip, understeer..Adding a sway bar can help dial in more if I add camber and a sway bar it kind of balances out but with the right tune it might give me an edge as optimizing grip for the particular track, might help get the car to do the things listed before, slow speed oversteer, mid speed neutral, high speed understeer.....

    I think I am going to mod the rear knuckles myself as my machine shop is slammed, I have a big disk/belt sander and mics, etc.....mark it well, take off material slowly....and buy a stock set, maybe two and have three different camber settings to test, rear knunckles can found for just $21.71 each!

    I was not able to get the rate on the rear bar I installed so if any engineering types, pro or well versed DIY, I can measure the diameter and wall thickness, arm length and angle, attachment points, adjustment points, etc...if interested in helping me determine the rate range it has. It would be great to compare to aftermarket and the rate of the beam axle!

    I have the car on the lift and using my tall transmission jack to lift one side of the axle up for different things I am working on back there and even with the springs removed once I get to the upper range of suspension travel the beam twists a great deal. I am going to measure the twist then do so with the bar at different settings, it has 5, so I can at least get an idea of the percentage it stiffens the axle.
  19. conevadr

    conevadr New Member

    For Street/Stock class autox, has anyone tried leaving the rear alone and running with the front disconnected/removed? The front bar is pretty thin and may not be really doing all that much. This would shift the balance to the rear without increasing the tripod effect. Remember that a bigger rear bar only works until the inside tire is off the ground, which is most of the time. My concern would be that any overall increase in body roll could lead to more inside wheel spin. Thoughts?

    George M
  20. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    This car is setup from the factory a bit differently we know so some of the things below are more speculation than tested on it, yet.....

    The car has pretty serious body roll stock even with stiffer springs, perhaps with a bit more shock to help at least slow the roll this might work but 3 wheeling is usually how FWD cars end up fast, when properly setup that is. More roll means less contact patch all around though so it might be slower yet.

    I normally go for a big rear bar, IRS then a huge bar and usually now front bar.

    On my car I am putting in very solid front bushings on the stock bar for now and adjustable end links, teflon lined mono ball units.

    On the rear I just finished fabricating and welding on rear sway bar mounts to the back of the spring perches, tied to the shock mounts and painted it, I have a CG rear bar from an E36 I modified to fit, 5 way adjustable. I did this for the fun of making parts but it took far more time than expected...I hope I like it!

    I am going to run stiffer springs all around but on coilovers with good damping so it should still ride well enough for my needs and handle even better.

    Anyway, my car is built for me, not to a rule set, I end up in SM usually with the wrong car but have made wrong cars quite fast in class many times, more rewarding than making the best car in class a winner which is not much of a challenge to me but I guess doing this for so long as somewhat changed my perspective:)

    Do let us know, it is a very easy thing to test, just unhook one end and tie it out of the way.
  21. eRic

    eRic Active Member

    after this weekend of autocross with AdvancTrac OFF

    I'm going to say "No" to adding a rear anti-sway bar to mine.

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