Speculating beyond bolt-ons.

Discussion in 'Fiesta ST Engine Upgrades' started by wash, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. wash

    wash Active Member

    Bolt-ons are great. I'm sure a down pipe, FMIC upgrade, cold air kit and a tune will make a good improvement but some people will want more.

    This thread is about the limitations of the stock 1.6 Ecoboost and how they can be addressed. Its speculation because no one has been pushing the limits and talking about it yet.

    #1, no tuning software. We can't tell what is going on with the ECU maps so we can't see where Ford tuned around the hardware.

    COBB has the Accessport and soon will have Accesstune Race which should solve the tuning issue.

    #2, a really small turbo. Looking at dyno curves and the description of the COBB 93 octane tune (20.5 psi boost at torque peak tapering off to 13.5 psi at red line), it looks like the compressor is too small to push a lot of boost at high rpm.

    A bigger turbo seems to be the answer but going too big will mean sacrificing that almost off idle surge of torque. A first place to look is the Borg Warner K03 that is used in the Focus ST and capable of 300 HP. Looking beyond that, Borg Warner's EFR series has a really impressive set of features like a low inertia Titanium Aluminide impeller, dual row ceramic ball bearings, a good integrated waste gate and very nice thin wall stainless turbine housing. The EFR 6258 is the smallest one available but good for 350+ whp on a Miata 1.8 with full boost achieved around 3,000 rpm. If we can find a turbo that can maintain the 20.5 psi boost and 220 ft-lbs of torque until 6,500+ rpm, 270 whp is possible which is a reasonable goal for the engine I think.

    #3, the high pressure fuel pump. With a tiny turbo I don't think anyone is going to find the limit but looking at the Bosch web site, it seems like they only make one basic pump and the volume supported is determined by the fuel pump lobe on the cam.

    The Ford Focus ST seemingly has the same pump and can support about 300 whp so if the Fiesta runs out of fuel, the fix might be as simple as a custom cam with an exact copy of the Focus ST fuel pump lobe.

    #4, fuel injectors. Hopefully these do not limit anything because they are application specific.

    #5, traditional turbo plumbing issues. Exhaust restrictions, cold side plumbing, etc. If you are going for a turbo upgrade, making nice plumbing seems like a no-brainer. Increasing the size of the throttle body and porting the intake manifold might be places to find power. Porting the cylinder head might be worthwhile too. It seems like there are going to be several FMICs to compare, hopefully one will be appropriate at the 300 whp level.

    My guess is that the next level in performance is a custom exhaust manifold, EFR 6258 turbo, high flow down pipe, high flow exhaust, FMIC upgrade, good plumbing, possibly a custom cam and a tune.

    The manifold, downpipe, and plumbing need custom fabrication and finding a custom cam might be hard but nothing is really out of reach. Since I can do a lot of the custom fabrication it seems like only a question of time and money ($1,450 turbo, probably $1,500 for stainless and intercooler, $625 for tuner, maybe 50 hours of fab).

    If there are any additional issues to address, known good parts sources or other ideas, this is the thread for it.
     
    moshaholic2 and ziggyst like this.
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  3. davidp

    davidp Member

    i think something like a bolt on gtx2867 would be nice on that engine .. it seems that the car runs out of injectors around 250bhp but the focus injectors (and upgraded injectors) might be compatible..
    having a bigger turbo means more efficiency but also colder intake charge temps which means that we could possibly run on the stock intercooler without any issues as long as the airflow is decent ..
    i'm wondering if ATP turbo will make something for FiST owners
     
  4. davidp

    davidp Member

    Here's a picture of the stock turbo.. i don't know if this is a known flange type but im pretty sure we can find adapters for this and the exhaust flange seems to be a 3 bolt flange also

    [​IMG]
     
  5. focusedintntions

    focusedintntions New Member

    Generally a limiting factor in generating power out of direct injection motor, isn't the in tank fuel pump, but the HPFP attached on the engine. It doesn't have traditional injectors....
     
  6. davidp

    davidp Member

    i dont know about the fiesta fuel pump but they sell upgraded injectors for the focus so i would guess they went the same way for the 1.6
     
  7. RodMoe

    RodMoe Well-Known Member

  8. wash

    wash Active Member

    That's a nice picture, it shows the Bosch high pressure fuel pump and even the way it is driven by a lobe on the camshaft.

    That and the turbo are probably the limiting factors, just look at that tiny turbo.

    I did some research on aftermarket turbos and that is how I read about the BW EFR series. They have just about every go faster feature out there including ceramic ball bearings and a titanium-aluminide impeller which weighs about 1/2 as much as a comparable size Inconel impeller and that makes it spool quickly. It also has an integrated waste gate and boost control solenoid valve so that its an easy retrofit for OEM style turbochargers.

    Lastly I was told by a guy who has lots of turbo Miata experience that the smallest EFR has power potential like a disco potato with spooling like the smallest common Garret aftermarket turbo.

    Trying to make big power from a 1.6 without losing that quick spool and 2,000 rpm torque is not something that is done very often and the parts choices are usually a large compromise. You get a peaky motor with lag if you don't choose right. Starting with the best available makes sense when you look at the work and $$ involved in a full system upgrade.

    I might have to call up Pumaspeed about getting just a header flange, but I'll have to read about welding 321 to 316 to be sure that it won't cause cracks. If that combo isn't a good one I'll just have to get a flange CNC cut from 321.
     
  9. davidp

    davidp Member

    well i wouldn't mind a turbo spooling a tad later .. it's pretty cool to have instant torque but when driving slowly in town honestly i'd prefer staying off boost and get better fuel economy... when i has my gencoupe i saw big inprovements in fuel economy when upgrading for a bigger turbo just because i was able to keep it off boost in the city
     
  10. davidp

    davidp Member

    Good news!!

    info@atpturbo.com
    5:24 PM (20 hours ago)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    to me
    [​IMG]
    Hi David,

    Thanks for contacting us.

    For sure, we are working on turbo upgrade options for the Fiesta ST. We've been in development mode on this platform for a few months now so turbo upgrade options will not be a problem.

    We just released 4 new turbo upgrades for the Focus ST with at least another half dozen coming in a few weeks.

    The Fiesta ST platform will get similar treatment from us.

    Thanks for bringing the demand for this application to light for us.

    We appreciate it.
     
  11. Fistofthebrownstar

    Fistofthebrownstar New Member

    How do we like the rods and wristpins in the 1.6 ecoboost? Good up to what power level do we think?
    Minor consideration is torque holding capacity of the stock clutch
    And I know it doesn't really fit here, but if we increase power by 50% or more, we also should consider braking and other chassis upgrades
     
  12. wash

    wash Active Member

    I just finished watching all of the instructional videos and took my first stab at using the Borg Warner EFR matchbot.

    I'm not sure everything is right and I would like to reverse engineer a match from a similar engine with good dyno data to see how close it gets and where I need a fudge factor.

    Any way, 5.6 psi at 2,000 rpm, 17 psi at 3,000 and 21 psi from 4,000-7,000 rpm with 330 HP at the crank, that turbo should spool pretty good at low rpm and deliver plenty of air. If the direct injection can keep up that sounds just about perfect to me.

    I'll eventually do some heat exchanger math to refine the inputs and I'll be emailing some people at Borg Warner to make sure I'm doing it right.
     
    moshaholic2 likes this.
  13. wash

    wash Active Member

    I intend to do a brake upgrade, coilovers, a little aero and maybe a bolt in harness bar/roll bar.

    I'm hoping the rotating assembly can take it. Usually a turbo engine is designed to handle a little detonation which is far worse than a 50% increase in power. I think the key is "don't detonate".
     
  14. moshaholic2

    moshaholic2 Active Member

    Yup, big HP is going to require some nice progressive boost control. Otherwise we'll just roast em and loose traction. Hope that can be controled via accessport programming.
     
  15. wash

    wash Active Member

    Well that's kind of the point, I would love it if I had enough power to smoke the tires from a roll in first, I don't like how it bogs.

    One questionable thing, the matchbot output says the wastegate is flow choked at 4,000+ rpm. I'm not exactly sure what that means but I hope it doesn't mean a secondary wastegate is required.

    Obviously boost control is critical, without it, detonation would happen any time rpms went very much over 3,000 rpm.

    One more thing to look in to: anti-lag systems.

    Traditional race systems are always active, very loud, waste fuel and tear up the turbo. If you tone it down just trying to spool the turbo a bit instead of build full boost at idle and only use it in certain throttle positions in a special race map, the turbo might live. Luckily with direct injection we may be able add fuel directly to the exhaust while the exhaust valve is open. I think that could be much gentler than a bang-bang system. You need extra air too, either by a lean burn in the engine or the race systems plumb air with something like a blow off valve in to the exhaust.

    I've found one thesis summary on a system like this, I'm trying to get a copy.
     
  16. wash

    wash Active Member

    It looks like I need to coordinate an inter-library loan with Austria.

    I hope the paper is worth the effort.
     
  17. fifoci

    fifoci New Member

    I don't see an anti lag being that beneficial with the stock turbo. It spools off idle anyway.
    And an aftermarket external wastegate probably would be a good idea if the factory one isn't sufficient.
     
  18. limbo

    limbo Active Member

    Yea I'm not seeing the point in "smoking tires from a roll". Can you also work up a thesis on engineering some torque steer while you're at it?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
    fifoci likes this.
  19. fifoci

    fifoci New Member

    Lol. I agree, when I had my turbo focus the point was not to spin. Bigger tire, and progressive boost works pretty good.
     
  20. wash

    wash Active Member

    I'm not talking about a stock turbo and I would rather use less than full throttle than lack power.

    In higher gears it requires an absurd amount of power to smoke the tires from a roll so soft tuning just makes for slow in gear acceleration tests.

    If I wanted to go slow bolt-ons and a stock turbo would be just fine.

    If I get serious torque steer problems I'll look for Focus RS Revo-knuckle struts but up to that point I will be careful to make the throttle response linear rather than softening full throttle.

    My goal is a car that can hang with a stock Mustang 5.0 in a straight line, kick ass in an autocross, be fully street able and look more economy car than race car.
     
  21. fifoci

    fifoci New Member

    I should have said boost by gear.
    My focus ran 12 psi 1st 18 2nd and 24 in 3. Virtually no spin and would pull harder when roll racing then just trying to pedal 1st and 2nd with full boost.
     

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