Water/Meth Injection

Discussion in 'Fiesta ST EcoBoost™ Tuning' started by Creu ST, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Creu ST

    Creu ST New Member

    Hello all, first post...

    First of all, I'm happy for all you guys that have found the ST to be everything and more that you had hoped. I'm looking forward to the day when I can join the ranks!

    After perusing the various forums, I have yet to see anyone mention one of the quickest ways to performance in turbocharged applications... Water/Methanol Injection.
    Recently, on an episode of 'Autoline After Hours' on YT, Dan Kapp, Director of Ford Powertrain Research and Advanced Technologies said, "We've done work to show that with the octane, and heat of vaporization characteristics of Ethanol fuels, you can squeeze unbelievable levels of torque out of the [Ecoboost engines]. If you want to talk about downsizing [of engines] more, that's certainly one of the enablers that could be out there."

    As many of you know Ethanol is good for boosted engines, but Methanol is even better. With a 50/50 mix of Water/Meth injecting post intercooler, and the tuning to go with it, the possibilities for Ecoboost engines are astounding. The only limits at that point will be the physical limits of the engine.

    After some calculations and looking at data from engines of the past, I'll come right out and say this... I believe the limit for the stock internals is somewhere around 375-400 flywheel HP. I know for certain that with a change of turbo, and the acceptance of a slight bit of lag, that the 1.6 EB engine will most certainly achieve 300WHP, and that BEFORE the introduction of water/methanol injection.

    With the stock engine/turbo, and water/meth injection being the only addition (and, of course, the tuning parameters), I think you could see a gain of around 30-50WHP, making for a serious butt dyno triumph.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, Dan Kapp is called the "father" of Ecoboost... Sweet!

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
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  3. McRib 1s Back

    McRib 1s Back Well-Known Member

    Welcome aboard!

    Water injection is a nice technique. I ran a high-end AquaMist unit on my SR20DE turbo motor with great results!

    Water has a better latency of evaporation than methanol, but opinions here vary wildly. I settled on plain old water.

    My testing proved atomized water was just fine! Keep in mind that you are trading one problem for another here -- simply adding water cools the charge, reduces the chances of pinging, and steam cleans your motor! No kidding it's amazing. Getting the precisely right ratio is very important!

    From there, it's about tuning (or you make a lot less power!). My old 2 liter made about 400WHP this way. :)

    As an aside, this is about intake injection, not as a fuel source. Our cars cannot handle methanol without a big system change! Just want to make sure that's clear when talking about injection of this sort. :)

    Edit: fix typo
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  4. wash

    wash Active Member

    Water/methanol is good when you can crank up the boost or you are trying to solve a detonation issue.

    The 1.6 doesn't have a detonation issue or any way to increase the boost significantly.

    Almost every SEMA Fiesta ST had Banks water/methanol injection but not even Banks could tell me how it helped a 1.6.

    It might allow more boost and torque at low rpm, but a stage 1 Cobb tune already gets you 240 ft-lbs, do you really want more than 150 ft-lb/liter?

    Show me something that can maintain greater than 21psi boost until red-line and then I'll look at water/methanol.

    I think what I'm looking for is called a bigger turbo.
     
  5. MOFiST

    MOFiST Member

    I'm also curious about W/M injection as it is something that's commonly done with other similar platforms ie VW's, Mazdspeed, and FoST. Surely this will progress once COBB release there tuning software.

    Would there be any harm in running a low volume spray just for keeping our intake valves clean and add some octane on boost?
     
  6. McRib 1s Back

    McRib 1s Back Well-Known Member

    You probably won't see this anytime soon. We have other bottlenecks, so to speak.

    Keeping the engine clean was a nice side benefit; you'd lose power doing this without having a map designed for it. It's simply not worth it.

    We have a very modern engine, and easier paths to more power. I really don't ever plan for much more than about 250 HP. Once we figure out the injectors, other limitations will surface.
     
  7. MOFiST

    MOFiST Member

    For sure. I realize this is probably lower down the list as a power mod however I do wonder if our intake valves will become an issue over the long term as they have on these other DI platforms. I'm likely going to fit a catch can for the time being and see what the tuners come up with.
     
  8. Shotamidget

    Shotamidget New Member

    This is something I really want to do research into.. Alaska only has 90oct and 100oct for planes we can get, but you have to be sneaky. I'd really like to hear personal experience first with meth injection on the fiesta before I make a plunge. I'm already saving up for a 28r.. Meth would be nice so things don't go caboom. if the 350-400 estimate is accurate or true, I wont need to rebuild the motor at all seeing as I want to stop at 300whp.
     
  9. siestaST

    siestaST New Member

    I don't have any experience with it on an ST (I don't even own an ST yet...yet...) but coming from the VW/Audi 1.8T platform I can say that water-meth is extremely beneficial even for a stock turbo. The torque curve and boost characteristics of the ST are very similar to those of the 1.8T (the 1.8T even used a BW K03 similar to that of the Focus ST, just a more archaic design) so I think WMI (water meth injection) would benefit a stock turbo ST in the same ways.

    The KP39 that the Fiesta comes with "maxes out" around 23PSI and tapers off after it hits that number, much like the K03 in an Audi. 23PSI was always thrown around as this invisible wall that you couldn't get around because the turbo "wasn't making power, just hot air". WMI was proven as a means to get around this. While not considered common (attributed to the need for lots of supporting mods like clutch, connecting rods, fueling, custom tuning, etc. that make it cost about as much as a simpler big turbo build) plenty of VW and Audi drivers were pushing 30PSI on the stock turbo using WMI and while that 30PSI only lasted for a short time before it started tapering off again (like usual) people were still able to push well over 300WTQ and something like 250WHP out of the turbo (mind you, at 10PSI it made about 170HP at the crank and the motor flowed like crap). If you port the exhaust and compressor housings (mainly the compressor housing) you can make a little more, keep the boost for longer and reduce your sun-like EGTs.

    Point being, a stock turbo Fiesta ST with WMI and a ported/polished/ceramic coated KP39 running something in the neighborhood of 30PSI would be insanely fun and much, much faster. Definitely sub 6 second 0-60 times and maybe a second shaved off of the quarter if I had to guess. On top of all of that it would hit like a freight-train and sound beastly.
     
  10. siestaST

    siestaST New Member

    The big questions are: how would the KP39 hold up to 30PSI (and for how long), could the connecting rods take that kind of torque with such an aggressive onset (are they forged?), what kind of knock would you get, and would the clutch hold? I think that if the answers are "it can take it", "they are forged"/"they can take much more than that", "knock wouldn't be an issue with WMI" and "it'll hold" then WMI on a stock turbo would be an awesome route to take simply because you aren't replacing everything, you get to keep the stock turbo's awesome torque curve (you just extend it) and you would build that 30PSI extremely quickly.

    If you threw in E85 alongside it you would have a freaking monster.
     
  11. McRib 1s Back

    McRib 1s Back Well-Known Member

    I had a 99.5 A4 1.8T that really did remind me of the power curve of this little Fiesta! On that car I went with a full exhaust, bigger IC, APR tuning, and a lightweight flywheel with a six-puck clutch (along with Big Red brakes from a Porsche 993!). It was impressive. I haven't had a car with such quick-spooling turbo characteristics until the FiST. So, I think you're onto something...

    If there's a problem, it's that most people that spend the money to build the motor and a turbo are not interested in simply extending the factory torque curve. I really like the idea but doubt I'd go that route if it required me to build the motor.

    Now, I can totally see installing a mildly better turbo to get most of the goodness you're talking about here! I have a feeling that we'll see a factory-like turbo that is ported/polished, etc.

    My car is pretty much just a road-race track car. I value the quick spooling turbo and low-end torque! If we see such a turbo development, count me in! :)
     
  12. hyatt

    hyatt Active Member

    The idea of water/methanol injection as a means of keeping valves clean is very appealing to me. Especially since we just tore a VW 2.0TFSI engine down at work for some technical content and the valves looked like someone had dipped them in asphalt.
     
  13. McRib 1s Back

    McRib 1s Back Well-Known Member

    It works amazingly well for that. When we examined my old SR20DE, it was squeaky clean! Back then we used AquaMist, but I'm not sure who the players are in that space any more. Also, I always just used plain old water. It has higher latency of evaporation than methanol and was completely sufficient for my car.
     
  14. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    Distilled water is best, just to be clear:)
    --------------

    Window washer fluid, winter version, has some methanol in it usually at least.

    --------------

    Finding methanol, I used to get 5 gallon jugs filled, mixing it, not running out, taking extra on a road trip....just a bit of a hassle back when only one tune available but now you can have tunes just for when you want to run it but make sure you have it setup right and it is actually working, always.
     
  15. McRib 1s Back

    McRib 1s Back Well-Known Member

    Right, I ran distilled water -- but "regular water" won't kill your car. We have pretty hard water here in LA, too.

    I had a one gallon reservoir and it lasted for a few days of spirited driving. It's nice to have a low level indicator, too. My custom tune flashed the "low indicator" while it was spraying. It was a nice touch. I was able to toggle from two different programs for with/without spraying. That was a fun car!
     
  16. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    The kit I had not only let me know if low it let me know if not pumping for any reason as well, instantly.

    Tap water can build up in the nozzle reducing flow but if the local water is pretty soft probably not an issue, where I live, terribly hard water.
     
  17. raamaudio

    raamaudio Active Member

    You can add a window washer pump and drip watering system misters and cool the Intercooler from the same tank:)

    I am doing a lot of work to ensure the best cooling I can get but if not enough then it will be a bigger radiator if I can find one first, water or water meth second and only use it on the track or if a really hot day climbing some mountain road, heavy traffic, doggies, etc.... in the car....
     
  18. Ernesto

    Ernesto New Member

    I'd rather run W/M than upgrade my factory intercooler, had a nice APR intercooler on my highly modified Audi A3 (400whp) and intake temperatures were always 10 degrees hotter than ambient temperature. My A3 had direct port W/M and I was seeing 35 degrees lower than ambient temperature, one word: awesome...
     
    Randy@mountune likes this.
  19. McRib 1s Back

    McRib 1s Back Well-Known Member

    That sounds like a nice A3. I had a first year DSG A3 with APR upgrades, too. The FMIC design of the FiST is quite different (actual front mount, stock!). The stock FiST FMIC is nearly the same size as the larger Focus ST! Anyhow, we already have great results with a couple different aftermarket FMIC units. In both cases, you basically maintain temps close to ambient. I will personally vouch for the Mountune FMIC.

    Fortunately, you don't have to choose. You need a better FMIC, and we'll eventually see water injection, too. It depends what you want to do with it the car.
     

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