Wilwood Brake Upgrade - How To

Discussion in 'Fiesta ST Chassis Upgrades' started by joe@2j-racing, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. wash

    wash Active Member

    I'm not sure on your reading comprehension because I'm just about to order an EFR turbo which is about the biggest single mod you can do to a Fiesta ST. My ST doesn't have any moon roof either.

    I was considering a Wilwood brake upgrade but looking at the various kits from Wilwood and TCE, none of the options seem appropriate. My solution: roll my own kit with FNSLR calipers and nice pillar vane rotors from another source.

    Unfortunately I'm a bit slowed down because the wheel situation sucks and I need about $8,000 to get a run of one piece forged wheels made and I want everything to work together instead of having $8,000 in useless wheels so it may take a while.

    I really hope I can get something together by the spring but its hard developing parts on your daily driver.

    As for the lightest ST around, my intention is to save weight with light wheels, light brakes (slightly heavier than yours), light exhaust, a lithium battery, removing trunk junk, trimming brackets and possibly replacing some steel parts with aluminum. There will always be someone who guts the interior and has a lighter car but I will be really happy if I can get close to 2,500 lbs.

    Not as easy as ordering parts out of a catalog since I'll be making a lot of them (yeah, I can do more than just drill rotors).

    Food for thought:

    Most drive trains have about a 15% parasitic loss, FWD is probably less because the final drive is a helical cut spur gear instead of a hypoid bevel gear. That seems to agree with the 197 HP rating of the 1.6 EcoBoost and low 170s whp dyno results (roughly 12.5% loss). If you were to neglect friction and brake rotors could cause a 15 HP loss, that would mean they were responsible for 60% of the parasitic loss and those big wheels hanging off the rotors account for no more than 40%. That would mean the moment of inertia of the brake rotor would have to be greater than the moment of the wheel and tire and to eliminate that 15 HP loss you would have to replace the stock rotor with a replacement that weighs 0. Wilwood rotors don't weigh zero and the stock rotors do not have a moment of inertia higher than a wheel and tire. Where does this mythical unmeasurable 15 HP come from? Stickers?

    For those that don't know, beside friction, the cause for parasitic drive train loss is the amount of energy required to accelerate the mass of the drive train including the clutch (I think), transmission, drive shafts, hubs, brake rotors, wheels and tires.

    I don't expect my light wheels, light tires and light brakes to have an effect that is anything close to even 10 HP but they should be good for handling as long as the tire compound and construction are good.
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  3. joe@2j-racing

    joe@2j-racing Active Member

    Thats an impressive "wish list" you have there. So what have you actually done instead of berate other people's mods and trolling? Its clear most of the info you give is regurgitated and not from your own experience. Aside from the years of expertise you have drilling holes in rotors, of course.

    For example, your parasitic loss and dyno numbers. We have our own dyno and we (or anyone) can make it say whatever we want. Looking at published dyno numbers and drawing a comparison on parasitic loss is just as effective as your butt dyno. Shouldnt you know that? The industry standard FWD loss is 18%. Ford published numbers are CONSERVATIVE.

    You should also know that a larger rotor stores more energy, has a higher MoI and since its 14lbs total lighter than stock (rotors) - THAT WILL LEAD TO GREATER ACCELERATION. Dropping 5lbs off your rims, is similar to 200lbs off the chassis - which equates to around 1/4 sec drop in the QTR. The light/large rotors are not as effective as rims/tire reductions - with greater MoI,. I was being cheeky when I said it pulls like a train or feels like 15hp - neither of which was meant to be taken literally, and no one did but you, Wash. So stop acting like a dumbass.

    You mentioned you "know the value of the dollar" - yet you are dropping 8 GRAND on wheels. If that isnt an oxymoron I dunno what is. 16" OZ Ultraleggra 4x108 wheels weigh in at 14.5lbs (26-30lbs less than stock) and cost under $180 each. And the tire will be lighter as well and will clear the Wilwood brake kit. So for $1500 you could have a reduction of 52-60lbs of UNSPRUNG WEIGHT. Better acceleration, greatly improved handling, grip and braking for 85% less than your wackadoo "value of the dollar" scheme (I'm estimating your brake kit at $2K)

    So I'm in for whatever you have planned - as this should be interesting
    captainmorbid likes this.
  4. joe@2j-racing

    joe@2j-racing Active Member

    With the remaining $6500 you'd have left over you could get a 2.0L, drop it in and throw down way more TQ than your EFR could ever hope to put down. And we're still within your wheel budget. Funny
  5. RodMoe

    RodMoe Well-Known Member

    Whoa Joe@2j-racing tell me more about getting those wheels at that cost...
  6. joe@2j-racing

    joe@2j-racing Active Member

    If you dont understand unsprung weight then you wont understand that VAST improvements in handling the brakes and wheels will have - with no improvement in tire needed. So you tell me how much whp would be required for a .3 sec improvement in QTR, with no change in weight (sprung and unsprung)? Then, you have an idea of how 5lbs per rim weight savings would equate to hp improvements.

    Moe, the rims are $184 from tirerack, but the only deliver to the shop on record, no drop ships.
  7. RodMoe

    RodMoe Well-Known Member

    Ahhh Ok thanks
  8. wash

    wash Active Member

    The wheel budget is for 20 wheels, I'll be selling at least 12. The unit cost is actually quite low for a forged racing wheel. Go ahead and try pricing out forged wheels.

    My brake kit will be about $1,000 but only because I'm going to go for the Nickel finish on the calipers (and I don't charge for labor on my projects).

    Going on the same labor rate, my turbo kit will be maybe $3,500. Fuel system upgrades might be expensive. Hopefully its just a set of modified injectors or a custom cam. This is a risk but being risk averse does not mean I never take any risk.

    You keep claiming I'm inexperienced, like drilling rotors is the only thing I've ever done. Its one of the silliest things I've ever done professionally but if I was still in that line of work I would do it again because it paid the bills.

    As for taking 15 HP seriously, I guess that's why I called it B.S.

    Some people aren't experienced and also do silly stuff to pay the bills, they should get what they think they are paying for, not bogus claims.

    What that kit is is a minor upgrade with skinny rotors, Wilwood's budget calipers and thin pads that will wear out a lot quicker than their more serious stuff.

    For perspective the Scion FRS weighs about the same, might be a hair slower and doesn't use the front brakes for torque vectoring or electronic limited slip. The Fiesta ST should need better brakes. Wilwood's FRS kit: FNSLR calipers on 12.88" rotors. For further comparison AP makes an FRS kit that is even more serious...
  9. Smokin

    Smokin Active Member

    and for a guy who keeps saying he's doing all these mods to his car, Wash seems to spend a lot of time on this forum.....:)
    joe@2j-racing likes this.
  10. was-an-M

    was-an-M Member

    So this is the 2011 Wilwood kit on a 2014 ST?

  11. joe@2j-racing

    joe@2j-racing Active Member

    Yes it is
  12. Fistofthebrownstar

    Fistofthebrownstar New Member

    Beyond awesome, OP, thanks!
  13. audiphile

    audiphile Member

    I don't run cross drilled rotors on my e36 M3 either, but I still manage to stress crack my Sebro or Textar solid rotors at Watkins Glen and Shenandoah. Rotors are cheap (unlike pads) so I don't care. I wanted to get some 15" track wheels/tires for the Fiesta, but since the wilwoods don't fit, maybe I'll stick to 16" wheel for now in case I need a brake upgrade in the future. Thanks for the post OP.
  14. Removed

    Removed Guest

    I got 16" winters for precisely this reason.
  15. Todd TCE

    Todd TCE New Member

    After reviewing the rear of a Fiesta ST yesterday I can confirm the Wilwood kits fit the front of the car but not the rear. There are some possible new alternatives for the rear however that are non-wilwood based. This would be a larger rotor kit (2pc) and caliper relocation bracket for the stock combo caliper in use now. Production based largely on demand however.
  16. Removed

    Removed Guest

    I will wait for Wilwood to make a kit. I'm gonna send them an email...
  17. D1JL

    D1JL Well-Known Member

    Didn't Wilwood make a rear caliper for the SVT Focus?
    The FiST uses the same mounting bracket as the Focus.
    I have already pre fit the SVT Focus bracket and rotors using the stock FiST calipers.
    I will complete the install after I build a bracket for the front.

    Swoopdown likes this.
  18. Todd TCE

    Todd TCE New Member

    Pretty sure I know the reply you'll get.
  19. Todd TCE

    Todd TCE New Member

    Wilwood never made a rear kit for a Focus SVT. (but I did)

    The rear may well share some of the same dimensions as the old Focus but the likelihood of even those parts (mine) cross fitting is pretty darn slim. At that, the kit would be nothing more than a larger rotor kit still. You'd need not only the same 108mm mount hole spacing, but the same mount radius and the same mount offset. Pretty tall order.

    The main reason you won't see much in the form of full BBK going on here is that even fitting the Wilwood combo caliper to the rear as a kit (figure $1200) is the same as what you have now. Only on a larger rotor. The improvements are not from the caliper but the rotor diameter. And that's 2X the price of simply using a larger disc. A lot of coin for branded calipers...
  20. D1JL

    D1JL Well-Known Member

    As I said I have already pre fit the SVT Focus rear rotors.
    I have the SVT caliper carriers and rotors and they fit perfect also these parts were easy to get.
    Soon I will be making brackets so that I can use the SVT Focus front rotors, that I also have.
    I know that it is only about a 10% increase in rotor size but for a daily driver with just some track use that will be fine.
    Yes, I will still be using the stock calipers but again for a daily driver this will be just fine.

    In the future I would like to go with Wilwood calipers but the cost would be prohibitive.
    Although I do like the function of the multi-piston calipers, I do not like the use of wheel spacers that are often required.

    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  21. frismanis

    frismanis Member

    But CAN you sell us this kit? You can send me a private message if you'd rather not discuss it on the open forum. I looked on your site, and the only 12.2 kit you have listed is for the Nissan.


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